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PostSubject: Technique Questions   Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ω Intense Strikes
TEXP: 2
Fists move so quickly with punches they are unable to be followed by normal eyes.

Ω Lightning Kicks
TEXP: 2
Feet are able to kick so swiftly that they are unable to be followed by normal eyes.

Ω Fighter's Heart
TEXP: 5
The ability to fight with uncanny power with your style of choice (MA, Brawl, Boxing, or Grappling.)
Effect: damage of normal fighting techniques +1 Strength attribute


Are these considered passive or do they have to be activated in battle? There are three viable scenarios.
1) After learning these, you have the ability to use them all the time as they enhance your existing abilities. I.e. Intense strikes applies to MA fighting with no additional stamina draw and your hands always move fast when attacking.
2) You learn these like normal techs and it exerts more stamina to use these increased abilities. I.e. there is a 10% draw when you go from normal MA fighting to enhanced MA fighting.
3) You activate the ability in battle and only pay the stamina cost once when you first use it.

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Last edited by escalation on Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:38 pm

so, Mariko's thing is a class change up to a human based demon?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:43 pm

Oh, Jesse, did you do the ascension quest, or did you just start as a kami?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:04 am

Lol! You make some funny-ass assumptions, Kyro. I got nothing against Kaz, this is in no way a retaliation to anything, the question's been on my mind even before the incident with Mariko. I just happened to find myself on the right thread so I figured I might as well slip it in. Just a member with a concern, and you could have been more friendly about it. However, I see you're still lacking in courtesy. But, I guess you've answered my question, I can't help that you take enjoyment in being a smartass.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:27 am

Half of my rps are as a cat until I earned my human form again, and Ive been a human ever since
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:57 am

That's all well and good, but unless you officially did the ascension quest Sanzo should still be a cat. Kamihume quest isn't the same as the ascension one, as you have to do the ascension quest first, am I right?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:58 pm

Oh! btw, it's been 48 hours in the fight. Since I got approved for staying yokai my post should be valid.
I don't mind that you didn't do the ascension quest that much if you didn't, so no need to wait on that, I just want to get on with the parteh.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:22 am

Quote :
Dual Wield (Passive)
TEXP: 1
Allows the user to shoot two hand guns at once with relative skill depending on level of Pistol Play.
hmm by reading this it sounds like this should be one of the few passive skills that doesn't need a rank as it cleary says that it depends on Pistol Play or am I just miss reading that?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:03 am

Rekoa wrote:
Quote :
Dual Wield (Passive)
TEXP: 1
Allows the user to shoot two hand guns at once with relative skill depending on level of Pistol Play.
hmm by reading this it sounds like this should be one of the few passive skills that doesn't need a rank as it cleary says that it depends on Pistol Play or am I just miss reading that?
That is correct, you do not have to train this.

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:07 am

Someone may want to tell rune that b/c he has trained it up to mastered.

Next question of the day is most likely just for shin. What is the OK time for a summon... like they areally can't die can they b/c if they can then why would a demon put up with a human telling them what to do all of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:20 am

that was the first thing that I did.. my intro rp was the ascension quest, and then I did the transformation into a human form
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:50 pm

Well, if this is true, then I request to have the rank removed to another tech.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:57 pm

Post it in an update.

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:53 am

@ sexy - nah, you didn't do the ascension quest. ur first update was http://wotr.forumotion.com/site-updates-f48/main-updates-thread-t177-450.htm#10689, which was the spiritual impression quest. i guess get that done sometime soon in like a flashback or somethin. yall can continue w/ur current rp tho.
search

@rekwon - it's a curse, they gotta

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:18 pm

Alright, I was looking at Ingel's bio and since the issue was brought up with duel wield, I need to get some others cleared up as well. Ingel has; Quick Reload (Trained), Running Shot (Trained), and Diving Shot (Trained). I was wondering if these needed to be ranked up, or if they don't need to be...
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:35 am

does the description say they're based on pistolplay?

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:41 am

No, Dual Wield is the only MWP tech that says it is based on Pistol Play level.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:01 pm

Yeah, its the only one, so I gotta rank up the rest of them to have them better? o.o
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:14 pm

yush
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:44 am

Regarding Combine techs, if the affinity's one of the two packages needed, does that half the stamina of the combine techs?

Also, for customs, if the custom is considered to be in one's affinity, does that reduce the 14 TEXP requirement by half as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:48 am

Regarding Combine techs, if the affinity's one of the two packages needed, does that half the stamina of the combine techs?
reduces stamina 1/4

Also, for customs, if the custom is considered to be in one's affinity, does that reduce the 14 TEXP requirement by half as well?
however psyre did his. i'll have to go back and look

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:57 pm

Okay.

And pending on that last bit?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:59 pm

I am pretty sure Psyre's Texp was halved for the custom Seer tech. If the main update board was available I would have posted a definite answer this morning.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:00 pm

Sounds reasonable. And if it wasn't the case, it should be. ;D
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:00 pm

then that works. i doubt kaz would pay full for anything and surreal's "pretty sure"s are good enough for me

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:38 pm

Alright, let's say hypothetically someone had Ascended/Fierce stats (+3) and they used Swordsmanship to attack someone (Dmg = Str. Attribute +2). This equals +5, which is higher than Destructive. How would the damage go on that? Would it be like... a Destructive level attack + an average level attack?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:49 pm

Chances are good that you would continue the damage calculation, subtracting your opponent's defense if they block and use the numbers given in fighting's breakdown. If they don't block, then they die and no calculations are given.

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:46 am

why in the world would something (woylf) with those stats be carrying a sword?... that's just dumb xD

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:03 am

Bah, I've figured ways to get stats to Destructive without being a woylf. I guess using that same method I could get a woylf to have destructive+ stats...
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:17 pm

Wouldn't it make more sense to be capped at Destructive/Supreme level? Otherwise, we already know what's going to happen. People are going to focus on figuring out how to get the highest outcome over destructive to pull off one hit kills. It's already easy enough to kill people, so why start making "off the charts" calculations? I've already figured out a few ways to attack over destructive, which is why I'm suggesting against it. One-hit kills make for boring fights and LONG arguments *coughmybrothervsroshicough*

Also, why does my name have to come up in everything that is custom and to answer, I paid 1/2 for my customs b/c they were based off of my affinity and Shin, stop making me sound like I'm frugal! I pay full price for smoothies... so ha!
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:58 pm

Psi_Prince wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to be capped at Destructive/Supreme level?
(blahblahblah)
smoothies...

i like that

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:31 pm

Wouldn't it make more sense to be capped at Destructive/Supreme level?
Ok, so what happens if someone attains Destructive level guard? They'd be untouchable if no attacks can ever do more than Destructive level damage. What about the people who attain 200% health? They can take a destructive level hit and still be standing, despite the fact that a building presumably would not be. And if it's so easy to kill people why has nobody died on this site who hasn't committed suicide?
And from my experience several-hit kills make for longer arguments *coughThisSitecough*. At least you're only debating one post.
I think Kyro's idea made more sense, as it solves the problems mentioned above. If someone had destructive level guard and they get hit by an attack higher than that, they take the surplus.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:18 pm

I suppose I should have an example of someone who would have Destructive level defense and 200% HP...
A woylf with Defense package @ affinity + perfected
Not even getting into if he had some sort of heal/regen skill...
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:24 pm

Kitsu wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to be capped at Destructive/Supreme level?
Ok, so what happens if someone attains Destructive level guard? They'd be untouchable if no attacks can ever do more than Destructive level damage. What about the people who attain 200% health? They can take a destructive level hit and still be standing, despite the fact that a building presumably would not be. And if it's so easy to kill people why has nobody died on this site who hasn't committed suicide?
And from my experience several-hit kills make for longer arguments *coughThisSitecough*. At least you're only debating one post.
I think Kyro's idea made more sense, as it solves the problems mentioned above. If someone had destructive level guard and they get hit by an attack higher than that, they take the surplus.

First off, they can only hit Ascended base stats ONCE per month, so other than that, they have Strong stats... like Expirs, Vaspires, Demons, Adv Yokai... then factor in Toughness and you've got 5 classes that ALL have Ascended Guard... so how do you overcome that? "Attacks of opportunity" or undefended attacks are counted as critical hits I believe, so if you can distract them, sneak attack them, or bind/trap them even for a turn to get off a free attack, you hit them with a Fierce attack and you've already removed 75% HP... Also, remember that Poison isn't based on defense I don't believe since it's not an attack, it's a status effect.

Why has no one died? Simple... you can die if you don't fight... and the few fights haven't been to leave someone dead. Lance died once though and he had Strong stats + 180 or 200% Health. That's actually another strategy to use too... make them run out of stamina they start dipping into health.

What you seem to be overlooking is that this Destructive+ works against non-Destructive Guard opponents as well meaning that you can potentially one-hit a non-Full moon wolyf being an ascended demon (Strong stats) using Unwetting Rayne (+4) wielding a sword (+2) using a sword attack (+3-5) = +9-11... is the problem clearly presented? +4 advantage is 100%... then what would +7 or 8 equal? Also, it is possible (IC-speaking) for an attack that would take out a building to not kill an individual... then again, considering that the only techs that could deal the amount of damage we're talking about are physical melee or weapon techs, most of them aren't set as area affect moves.

There might be more to say, but this has been sitting in my post window for two days.

Kitsu wrote:
I suppose I should have an example of someone who would have Destructive level defense and 200% HP...
A woylf with Defense package @ affinity + perfected
Not even getting into if he had some sort of heal/regen skill...

x
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:08 pm

Quote :
First off, they can only hit Ascended base stats ONCE per month Irrelevant, as they can still fight during that once a month.

Why has no one died? Simple... you can die if you don't fight... I know this. It was a rhetorical question. It must be hard to kill people if nobody ever fights. Lance... You do realize Lance was going out of his way to take your attacks and doesn't know how to fight, right? Give Kyro or anybody else an NPC with that same set of stats and see if they goes down so easily.

What you seem to be overlooking is that this Destructive+ works against non-Destructive Guard opponents as well meaning that you can potentially one-hit a non-Full moon wolyf being an ascended demon (Strong stats) using Unwetting Rayne (+4) wielding a sword (+2) using a sword attack (+3-5) = +9-11... is the problem clearly presented? Your math is off. It'd be Unwetting rain with a melee tech (+3) OR Bushido, which does go off of your strength +2 (+5) OR a sword tech, which does not go off of your strength stat (+2-4), meaning your max would be +5, 125% damage. Assuming the other person had Strong strength and blocked your sword with his body, assuming he wasn't wearing armor, you'd be dealing with five minus two or +3, which is 75%. If the other person failed to block without armor or had low stats, how much damage the attack did, as Kyro said, is irrelevant, because they essentially took a destructive level attack unguarded, unless they have defensive package, wherein it becomes relevant again because they have more than 100% HP, in which case they would be reduced to 75% if they had futeki mastered. Anyways you can't stack a plain sword attack with a fancy sword attack in one strike, so you'll have to present another example, if you would be so kind.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:40 am

Psi_Prince wrote:
...wielding a sword (+2) using a sword attack (+3-5) = +9-11... is the problem clearly presented? +
That's funny in a WOTR kind of way. Weapons generally don't have damage attributes on this site.

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:00 pm

Armor? I have the body armor and it doesn't have a numerical protection value to it. Just says that it protects vital organs. We don't know if it protects at weak, avg, strong, w/e. So I don't really see how wearing the $500 body armor is going to help you...

You are correct... my math was slightly off...

Demon/Vaspire/"Samurai Expir" (3) + Unwetting Rayne (+1) = Ascended Stats (4)
Plus any melee weapon style other than daggers (+2) = (6)
Sonic Slash (+3) = (9)
Magnitude (+4) = (10)
Supremacy (+5) = (11)

If the weapon style's dmg rating of Str +2 is only used for Simple Slash or Thrust... then the numbers would be 7, 8, and 9... meaning that if you hit someone that is meant to be a powerhouse tank (Ascended stats) with Supremacy, you can take them out in roughly 2-3 hits w/o using much of your stamina:

Perfected Supremacy on Bushido with Weapon Melee (Bushido) affinity = 12.5% stamina cost. You don't even need to have Capacity to clear the field with that kinda Damage:Cost ratio.

Also, as I hope I've shown, you don't need to be a Wolyf to deal insane damage if Shin takes the limitation off. Now what if someone clones Char A so now they have Ascended stats too. Then they use Energy Barrier or Dark Barrier, which has Strong Guard, so now they are at Def Rating 7... you're still at 9 with Supremacy, so you'll still deal 50% dmg... so in this example, you'll have to hit them 5 times, guessing that they heal at least once.

So if Shin lifts the limit... normal humans, Hitos, any possession not in their peak time, and 1/2 of the possessions even in their peak time, are screwed since they can only reach +5 Def Rating with Weak/Average base defense + Barrier and the weapon wielding Char A, hits for 100% or 100+% on each use of Supremacy.

The system is not perfect and there will be no perfect system b/c stat systems are too rigid and situations arise where you can either kill people far too easily or it's too damn hard to kill someone. Non-stat systems are too open b/c subpar rping or simply how the rpers view the environment and/or their ability to manipulate it creates problems. I just think that taking the limitations off will cause far more headaches. As it stands, you have to use strategy or strength in numbers to overcome powerful enemies. The thing to remember is that even a full moon wolyf can be badly hurt if you catch him off guard.

Side Notes to Shin: There are multiple Weapon Melee techs that don't have a damage rating or are they enhancement techs like you'd unlock and use that tech with a tech with a damage rating... like should Passing Slash have a damage rating or would you combo passing slash with Sonic Blade or Bushido's base dmg?

Demonic Arts: Is there anything stopping a character with Demonic Arts from using Chaotic Familiars and Dark Barrier in the same post say if they already have them called forth and when the big attack is coming or forming they chant to invoke Dark Barrier while wrapping the familiars around themselves? I ask b/c that would make someone virtually untouchable...
Ascended Spirit (3) + 3 (Barrier) + 3 (Familiars) = 9
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:07 pm

Psi_Prince wrote:
Armor? I have the body armor and it doesn't have a numerical protection value to it. Just says that it protects vital organs. We don't know if it protects at weak, avg, strong, w/e. So I don't really see how wearing the $500 body armor is going to help you... Oh, you're right. My mistake

You are correct... my math was slightly off... Still is, and "slightly" is an understatement. I don't think you understand that Bushido doesn't stack with ANY other damage-causing techniques in the package and that damage starts at +0 (weak) despite the fact that this was the main point of my last post. Let me correct your math.

Demon/Vaspire/"Samurai Expir" (+2) + Unwetting Rayne (+1) = Ascended Stats (+3)
Plus any melee weapon style other than daggers (+2) = (+5)
None of the following techs stack with the weapon styles or your strength/stats in the same way magix attacks don't stack with your stats. They are standalone techniques.
Sonic Slash (+2) = (+2)
Magnitude (+3) = (+3)
Supremacy (+4) = (+4)
Thus, the strongest tech in this list is just using a melee weapon style without a tech so you can make use of your ascended stats (for example Bushido, which would deal 5 damage, as I said the last time you presented this example.). If you use Sonic Slash, you will deal 2 damage. If you do magnitude, you will deal 3 damage. If you do supremacy, you will deal 4 damage. This is not WOTR/WOTL, as Kyro pointed out.


If the weapon style's dmg rating of Str 2 is only used for Simple Slash or Thrust ... then the numbers would be 7, 8, and 9... (I'm not sure where you got 7, 8, and 9 from. A simple slash or thrust would be 5 according to the previous math) meaning that if you hit someone that is meant to be a powerhouse tank (Ascended stats) with Supremacy, you can take them out in roughly 2-3 hits w/o using much of your stamina:

Perfected Supremacy on Bushido with Weapon Melee (Bushido) affinity (Advanced Sword Tech (Supremacy) + Basic Sword Tech (Bushido) = Do Not Stack. I know I've said this previously. Please do not ignore my main argument before you continue talking.) = 12.5% stamina cost. You don't even need to have Capacity to clear the field with that kinda Damage:Cost ratio. Provided it existed.

Also, as I hope I've shown (Sometimes it's good to step back and listening instead of repeating the same wrong thing), you don't need to be a Wolyf to deal insane damage if Shin takes the limitation off (I never saw a limit mentioned explicitly on the battle page). Now what if someone clones Char A so now they have Ascended stats too. Then they use Energy Barrier or Dark Barrier , which has Strong Guard (Strong guard that does not stack with your defense stat btw), so now they are at Def Rating 7 (+2 barrier, +3 actual defense)... you're still at 9 4 with Supremacy, so you'll still deal 50% dmg no damage, but you'll break the barrier... so in this example, you'll have to hit them 5 times, guessing that they heal at least once 4 times without a heal assuming they block each time, I'm not sure how much HP you're talking about recovering with the heal, but while he/she is healing his/her opponent has a free shot.

So if Shin lifts the limit... You're assuming there's a limit in place. My question was if there was a limit. Please do not assert that there is one if it hasn't been stated outright yet.
The system is not perfect... Do you understand the system? So far you've added +1 to every value and stacked techs that can't be stacked. If you were doing math like this when you fought Rune and he assumed it to be correct, it's no wonder he went down so fast.

Demonic Arts: Is there anything stopping a character with Demonic Arts from using Chaotic Familiars and Dark Barrier in the same post say if they already have them called forth and when the big attack is coming or forming they chant to invoke Dark Barrier while wrapping the familiars around themselves? I ask b/c that would make someone virtually untouchable...
Ascended Spirit (I assume you're talking about a spirit with ascended stats, since you used 3) (3), 3 (Barrier)(should be 2), 2 (Familiars) = 3. An ascended level area attack would wipe out all of those defenses, unless you had one defense defending another, which I question the legality of but would argue that you could clear that up easily with a destructive level attack. Two strong defenses don't add up to a destructive level defense, they're separate defenses unless you ask for a custom combine.

Please read my posts, don't make the same mistakes, and find some valid examples.
Is there any way I can make the fact that you can't stack 2 techs without a combine clearer? I know I may have been vague with the previous post...
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:30 am

Psi_Prince wrote:
Side Notes to Shin: There are multiple Weapon Melee techs that don't have a damage rating or are they enhancement techs like you'd unlock and use that tech with a tech with a damage rating... like should Passing Slash have a damage rating or would you combo passing slash with Sonic Blade or Bushido's base dmg?
dmg is based on user's swordstyle dmg rating. so if they got bushido, then it's based on w/e bushido hits for, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:30 pm

Kitsu: You were correct about the not stacking strength with damage... why it's not stated on the FIGHTING page, I'm not sure, but I found it as the last line of attribute stuff on the breakdown page. My mistake. However, I did not make a numerical mistake for my attacks against Rune b/c thankfully magic "logically" doesn't have any boost since there's no magic stat. So I admit that I was incorrect.

Also tho, your numbers are off:
H2H wrote:
» Weak | Low = 1
» Average | Medium = 2
» Strong | High = 3
» Ascended | Fierce = 4
» Supreme | Destructive = 5
* Each have a count of +1.

You factor in defense afterwards. So the +2 that you thru on there would be Strong dmg against Weak Defense not all defenses. Hence why I did raw dmg to show the total dmg rating before defense. As you'll see further down tho, the 7,8,9 was still off... that was incorrect b/c I factored in STR to tech damage.

So the only way to break Destructive dmg is?
1) Full Moon Wolyf use Kitsao Pao
( Base Dmg of 6)
(7 with Rayne)
(8 with Rayne + Enhance casted by ally)

OR -1 DMG for using Fighter's Heart + Fighter's Endurance and you no longer have to spend stamina to deal Destructive+ DMG.

2) Demon/Vaspire/Expir/Wolyf with Melee Weapon Package
(Base Dmg of 5)
(6 with Rayne)
(7 with Rayne + Enhance casted by ally)

* Weapon Endurance will remove any stamina cost of cutting ppl up at this dmg rating and you don't lose the -1... wait so that would mean that any of these classes could deal Destructive+ dmg with each strike and never spend your stamina... as it stands now you could already deal Destructive dmg without Unwetting Rayne since Strong +2 = Supreme/Destructive... for ZERO Stamina.

So there are two packages... both are melee that will allow the breaking of the Destructive dmg limit... so how does it make sense to allow ppl to surpass Destructive? It's not possible with magic as none of the abilities added strength to the damage, so why should it be possible with physical?

As for the question of is there a limit, it would be logical that if the damage rating doesn't go past destructive then destructive is the strongest amount of damage, yes? Thus implying a limit.

Demonic Arts
Since you answered for him... I feel that you are incorrect in the assumption that you can't use the two defensive abilities in unison b/c my example does not combine them, but using them as two separate lines of defense that are trying to stop the same attack simultaneously, not at the same time.

If the familiars are already called out in Round 1 then in Round 2, you summon Barrier in response to incoming attack. You would naturally brace yourself if the attack looks deadly or simply big enough... thus... even if the Destructive attack crushes the barrier, it should be weakened since an attack doesn't recharge itself. Even with an area effect tech, everywhere else would be at destructive still, but at the area where the barrier is, the attack's strength would have weakened. So when it comes to hit the Familiars, they will either stop the attack from hurting you completely or soak up enough the damage that when the remaining energy or force hits you, it deals like 10% dmg.

So unless there's something saying that you can't wrap your familiars around you like armor while casting a defensive barrier spell... this isn't illegal. Also, if Dark Barrier is at Honed... it could have been summoned two turns ago, so even more point of not combining techniques. The barrier is already there, you're simply wrapping the familiars into a shield in front of you or around you when the attack comes... all one move.

Confusion
So if there is a damage limit, which seems to be the case... there will need to be something clearly stated about the Familiar + (Dark/Energy) Barrier loophole of defense otherwise, there really will be an unstoppable setup. Also, since she brought up full moon wolyfs... what is it about hardened skin/fur that makes them less susceptible to magic? Swords and punches makes sense, but how does the full moon help protect against a huge lightning bolt or fireball? Even Goku could still be hurt in Saiyan Ape form. I do see her issue tho b/c at ascended stats, attacks that level buildings take like 25% of the wolyf's health tho... provided that they don't use some magical barrier since nothing says that they can't use magical in wolyf mode. If they do... they take no damage at all b/c what's left of the Destructive attack hits base defense since they are in blocking/guarding mode.

Ya kno, Kitsu... there are a lot of gaps about the battle system that I'm noticing b/c a lot of stuff isn't clearly stated... I just noticed that you only use the defense stat if you're blocking... meaning that if you don't block, you soak full damage? Now if you use a defensive technique or barrier, are you still considered to be blocking (and thus use Defense attribute in the dmg calculation)? I don't see a clear answer posted on the main site. Wow... I have so many more questions now that I've gone thru the site to notice things than I did before you mentioned this... ignorance was bliss. The system seems more convoluted now.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:41 pm

The Battle Page wrote:

● Damage (DMG)
Damage is subtracted from Health and once it subtracts health to 10% or less, the target is nullified. How much damage is done per technique or ability is dependant on its rating which are explained more in the Breakdown. They damage and attribute ratings are:
» Weak | Low
» Average | Medium
» Strong | High
» Ascended | Fierce
» Supreme | Destructive
* Each have a count of +1.

If an attack has a Strength Level that is lower than the Attribute Strength of the target (mainly Def) then the attack does 0% DMG.
If it is the same level, the attack does 10% DMG. The following is true:
+0 then 10% DMG,
+1 then 25% DMG,
+2 then 50% DMG,
+3 then 75% DMG and
+4 then 100% DMG

Psi_Prince wrote:
You factor in defense afterwards. So the +2 that you thru on there would be Strong dmg against Weak Defense not all defenses. Hence why I did raw dmg to show the total dmg rating before defense. As you'll see further down tho, the 7,8,9 was still off... that was incorrect b/c I factored in STR to tech damage.

So the only way to break Destructive dmg is?
1) Full Moon Wolyf use Kitsao Pao impossible
( Base Dmg of 5)
(6 with Rayne)
(7 with Rayne + Enhance casted by ally)


OR -1 DMG for using Fighter's Heart + Fighter's Endurance and you no longer have to spend stamina to deal Destructive+ DMG.
Now I understand your concern here, but keep in mind you can't use that package while in full moon form the same as you can't use swords, since it mentions that you have to be in humanoid form for both. I assume this scenario is in a 2 v 2 fight, and "Enhance" does subtract attributes from one ally, whom you can then attack so he can stop enhancing, but the point is sort of moot since Woylfs can't use Kitsao Pao with their full moon transformation.

2) Demon/Vaspire/Expir/Wolyf with Melee Weapon Package
(Base Dmg of 4)
(5 with Rayne)
(6 with Rayne + Enhance casted by ally)


* Weapon Endurance will remove any stamina cost of cutting ppl up at this dmg rating and you don't lose the -1... wait so that would mean that any of these classes could deal Destructive+ dmg with each strike and never spend your stamina... as it stands now you could already deal Destructive dmg without Unwetting Rayne since Strong +2 = Supreme/Destructive... for ZERO Stamina.
Now I understand your point here as well. Yes, this can happen, but the drawback is your sword is the same strength as ever and someone can break your sword with one destructive level hit, rendering you unable to use any techs in that package for the rest of the battle. God help you if Weapons Melee was your only package...
So there are two packages... both are melee that will allow the breaking of the Destructive dmg limit... with significant drawbacks that make them less feasible so how does it make sense to allow ppl to surpass Destructive? It's not possible with magic as none of the abilities added strength to the damage, so why should it be possible with physical?
Mostly it's because when you're doing a physical attack, you're only covering a small area with damage and furthermore putting yourself in harm's way/close range and furthermore you have to be humanoid (so it's another thing made to help the poor, weak-stated humans). Magic is much more versatile and it's easier to hit people with, both close range and from a long distance, as those packages contain many attacks that surround or affect an area and are thus hard to dodge.
As for the question of is there a limit, it would be logical that if the damage rating doesn't go past destructive then destructive is the strongest amount of damage, yes? Thus implying a limit. Destructive is the strongest one mentioned. It simply doesn't address what happens if you surpass it.

Demonic Arts
Since you answered for him...
So unless there's something saying that you can't wrap your familiars around you like armor while casting a defensive barrier spell... this isn't illegal. Also, if Dark Barrier is at Honed... it could have been summoned two turns ago, so even more point of not combining techniques. The barrier is already there, you're simply wrapping the familiars into a shield in front of you or around you when the attack comes... all one move.
Hells Echoes
TEXP: 15
Red rings begin to oscillate about the user in a wide target area and flames explode out and cover the surroundings with dark hellfire for a post.
Effect: damage is Destructive

So using that line of logic, if you had a barrier up and your friend was standing in front of you during an attack like Hell's Echoes, it should only affect one of you. I say that because either your familiars are surrounding you, or the barrier is. They shouldn't be able to occupy the same space, but I didn't realize it was addressed at Shin so I apologize and I'll let him answer.

Confusion
Ya kno, Kitsu... The system seems more convoluted now.

Yea, all of the systems on the site and the history are very vague. I think they should be clarified and condensed during the overhaul.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:29 am

Shin has actually approved the use of swords in wolyf mode b/c a werewolf is technically a humanoid creature since it can walk solely on two feet utilize their hands and such. So the Physical Melee example might very well hold. I suppose that is pending his revision.

Stats: Still, like I said... Average is +1 on the basis that the target has Weak Def. Average Value of 2 - Weak Value of 1 = +1. So we're saying similar things here. Your numbers are correct for Weak defense but not against any other defense. Since that is the case, I do my calculations raw since the RPer has to factor in their opponent's defense on a case-by-case basis. Also, if they don't/can't defend then you don't even factor in weak defense and the full amount of dmg is taken by the target.

Barrier: By their descriptions, they would not be taking up the same space as Dark Barrier creates a sphere around you whereas you could cocoon the familiars "tightly" around you so that the Barrier is easily outside of the space of the familiars.

I will agree that magic is easier to connect with, but the issue that arises is that several classes can simply put up their arms to block and most of the damage is soaked up like that. With physical, yes you have to be humanoid but aside from the wolyf, all the rest of the classes are undeniably humanoid. That's why I used Ascended demons instead of all demons since there's Onihume and Kamihume.

This was very civil and I actually learned different mistakes that I had been making. So now it's just a matter of Shin ruling on all of this... wonder how long that'll take.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:49 am

Well, yes, a lot of these things are pending revision, but...
Psi_Prince wrote:

Stats: Still, like I said... Average is +1 on the basis that the target has Weak Def. I'm not seeing where on that battle page excerpt it says that the scale changes when you graduate from weak guard, so that leaves me to assume the numbers are the same regardless of your defense. Average Value of 2 - Weak Value of 1 = +1. This should be Average (+1) - Weak (+0) = Average (+1). So we're saying similar things here. We really are, but it's one of those technicalities. Your numbers are correct for Weak defense but not against any other defense. It's the same across the board, basically to make accommodations for what would happen if someone's guard was equal to the attack, for example: Strong attack (+2) - Strong guard (+2) = Weak damage (+0) or 10%. If the scale was the way you said then Average - Weak would equal Average damage, but Average - Average would equal nothing, there'd be no way to get to weak damage other than to do a weak attack against someone not blocking. Also, if they don't/can't defend then you don't even factor in weak defense (thus the reason weak is +0 on the scale and not +1. There's no such thing as weak defense really, you can start blocking at average) and the full amount of dmg is taken by the target.

I will agree that magic is easier to connect with, but the issue that arises is that several classes can simply put up their arms to block and most of the damage is soaked up like that. Well, since the battle page says,

"If it is a magix attack where the attack is larger than your weapon, then you still take damage and at most halved if much of the concentration of the attack can be displaced."

I would argue if the tech description says "Tornado of water that surrounds and engulfs a target," or "Molten fire runs from the base of a user and runs along the ground, swirls to surrounds an area, raises up and then crashes down from above," or "Projects an invisible beam that, if hit, creates a void inside a target, visible dark orbs are extracted from the target dealing internal damage," your arms alone would fail to displace the concentration of the attack, and it would simply fail to be a critical hit. You can block a little fireball with your arms, yes, but your defense only counts as half what it would against a sword if you're using decent magix techs.
With physical, yes you have to be humanoid but aside from the wolyf, all the rest of the classes are undeniably humanoid. Which, depending on whether your a kami or an oni, magix based or physical based, willing to get close to your opponent/rely on a sword in exchange for less stamina drain for higher damage, or stay back and snipe/use techs that drain more stamina for less damage in exchange for better chances of hitting, may or may not be an advantage. Kamihume takes stamina, whereas Onihume doesn't, which would also factor into someone's strategy. That's why I used Ascended demons instead of all demons since there's Onihume and Kamihume.

This was very civil and I actually learned different mistakes that I had been making. Yea, this discussion was pretty cool. Cleared up some misconceptions I had too because it forced me to go back and look at Da Rulez. So now it's just a matter of Shin ruling on all of this... wonder how long that'll take... he might get to it around the same time one of your main characters gives all his possessions to the poor and moves to a monastery for a life of poverty and celibacy.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:07 am

P.S.: Does Weapon Projectile deal damage based on strength? It doesn't seem to say what the damage is...
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:12 am

believe it or not, i wanna restrict how much i cap ppl. let's go w/uncapped for now and if that gives me issues, we'll switch to capped

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:15 pm

Ok I got a question...

Its seems that if I stay a Yokai and get my second more powerful form that I can not get a human form. For the human form seems resricted to Onikonjou and Kamikonjou

So I know I might be asking for a lot. But is it possible to get the Yokai second form and then go on to become either a Onikonjou or Kamikonjou and get human form then?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:36 pm

those are classes changes. takes ya from one class to another. so you can prob do that, but you lose the yokai stuff. think that's right ^_o

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:06 pm

So basicly...No lol thanks for the quick reply
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:13 am

Heal
TEXP: 2
Restore health to a body and heal wounds.
Effect: +HP% to target -STA% from user. Drawback from user decreases -5% per level of control.

Refresh
TEXP: 2
Restores Stamina to a body.
Effect: +STA% to target -HP% from user. Drawback from user decreases -5% per level of control.

Would a character be able to cast these spells on themselves? If so, they could get themselves back up to full health and stamina with relative ease. Defeats the purpose of having Rest techs.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:10 am

target's supposed to support someone other than urself
i've had a few ppl ask if they can target themselves, etc
it's gonna be specified better w/the update

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:00 am

Ah.
Would that include the other techniques in the support package as well? More pointedly, the area affecting ones: Unwetting Rayne and Sakura Shower. Does it affect the caster as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:33 am

ya, my vision for support was t' support others

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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:10 pm

Question on Darken. As it says it turn's the area's day into night, could this work to transform Woylfs, Night Seers, or Vaspires into their stronger forms? And day seers into their weaker? Or is it strictly for visual effect?
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PostSubject: Re: Technique Questions   Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:25 pm

Darken
TEXP: 10
A spell that darkens the surroundings of an area, turning day into night in covering an area that increases with the level of mastery.
Effect: darkens up to 25 ft, area increases x1 per level (i.e. x3 at honed), drain is Medium

The range on this seems off. Twenty five feet is about the size of my bedroom, thus Darken would be more like a "shadow" (no pun with the package name intended). With a max range of one hundred and twenty five feet, it's not terribly impressive at perfected. A technique like this should probably be around the same range as "Rain" for it to work properly. Keep in mind a normal city block is about 800 yards (aka 2,400 ft), so at perfected, this technique should at least cover a block to be effective IMHO.

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